Jim Pietruszynski [00:00:00]:
Everyone is responsible for the energy that they bring to their room. Positivity like yields positivity going into a marketing organization and some of our clients where they're pushing numbers all day to tell us that the best meetings they have are when they get to sit down and talk about creative. If we bring a positive attitude, a positive message and our positive energy to the experience, I think that transcends through the process, transcends through the work, and then transcends through the campaigns. Just the brand in general.
Travis Albritton [00:00:31]:
Welcome back to the Honest Marketing podcast, where you learn proven strategies to grow your business without selling your soul. I'm your host, Travis Albritton, and today we're talking all about branding. My guest, Jim Petrazinski, is the CEO of Soul site, which is a premium branding agency that works with a bunch of the Fortune 100 companies like Hershey's and cores and all of them to really help facilitate and shape their brand identity and the message of how they are perceived in the marketplace. And so in this conversation, we're going to talk about what branding is, what it isn't. Can businesses afford to ignore branding and just focus on product development? What are some of the key things that you need to have in mind when you're thinking about branding and positioning for your own business? And then just dig into some really good details, practical things you can do to improve the branding of your business. Make sure you stick around to the very end of the episode where I'll give you my number one takeaway from my conversation with Jim. But here it is. Let's dive in.
Travis Albritton [00:01:29]:
Well, Jim, welcome to the Honest Marketing podcast. Super happy to have you here talk all about branding.
Jim Pietruszynski [00:01:34]:
Thanks for having me, Travis.
Travis Albritton [00:01:36]:
So just to set a little bit of context before we dig into our conversation, can you tell everyone listening a little bit about you, your background, and then also the work that you do at Soul site? Sure.
Jim Pietruszynski [00:01:47]:
Just in a minute and a half segment so I don't bore you too much. I've been with Soul site for 27 years. Started out as a designer, art director, crave director, strategist, account manager, CMO. I've run, starting with three of us, to about. We fluctuate between 65 and 70 teammates right now and we are a full service holistic branding agency. So really working on Fortune 100 brands, but also working on innovative brands or startups in the marketplace. And what's fun about the agency is depending what you're working on or who your clients are, the business changes and everything stays interesting. So it's a constant learning environment that is really exciting to be part of and it's really exciting to work on Fortune 100 brands that have been around for 100 plus years and be able to be part of those stories, too.
Jim Pietruszynski [00:02:51]:
So it's like, as we work on those, we leave legacies. We are located in Chicago, we are our headquarters, but we do have staff that work remotely as far away as Hawai. Our work has become a little bit more flexible in terms of geographic location, which has helped us in some cases, depending on markets that we're in or where we're going. But, yeah, that's in a quick nutshell, who we are and what we do. But yeah, our core purpose and vision is around branding. And we like to say we build a mode of brands that move, move people, move product and move culture. So in a nutshell, that's our positioning.
Travis Albritton [00:03:36]:
So, yeah, how do we change the world for the better with the business that we're involved with?
Jim Pietruszynski [00:03:41]:
Wow, great question. I think that's something that as coming from a creative background, coming from a fine arts background and a design background, and moving into a world of marketing where those skills could be used to tap into branding. I think brands often define our culture as we see it and where we're at in culture, we often say come to people as we are or come to people as they are instead of trying to have them come to you. So you have to be a little bit vulnerable and you have to be a little bit proactive when it comes to those types of things in order to make change. And I think as we move forward, that has to come with trustworthiness, authenticity, empathy and a high level of vulnerability to be able to say we didn't get it right or you really need to lean in to understand. And in thinking about what we do in branding and in marketing is also, as we say, it defines culture. We're defining the artifacts that 200 years from now, people are going to study to understand where we came from and how we've improved or how we've adjusted, or how we've thought about making the world a better place or how we're thinking about what are the needs that we have for consumers today. Not just putting out.
Jim Pietruszynski [00:05:17]:
Throwing brands in the market is not just all about filling the shelves to make money, but actually putting something in market to fulfill a need. And those are the products and those are the brands that are more successful in what we do.
Travis Albritton [00:05:34]:
For sure. Now we're saying the word brand a lot and I know it's a buzword in marketing and in sales and business. And I think a lot of, especially earlier business owners, they think of brand as like this aspirational thing. It's like I start a business that is profitable enough that I don't lose my house and then eventually I shift into legacy mode. And that's when I start thinking about brand and this idea of how am I perceived. But I actually think that from my perspective, that seems a little bit backwards. The way that you get there is by having the branding that tells the story to get to you, to where you want to go. But I would love to hear, in your words, why is branding important for businesses? And why is it not enough today to just make great widgets? Whereas in the past you could just have the most robust toaster oven and that was all you needed, but now that's just not going to cut it anymore.
Jim Pietruszynski [00:06:27]:
Great question, too. I think that the brand for us as we describe it, is an expression and also a story. So there's that old notion of like, product first or brand first. And I think if you think about brands that have been around or have been sustainable for a number of years, start with a story, they start with passion, they start with experimentation, but they're rooted in someone or something that has purpose. So brand has to have purpose in order to be able to move forward. And with that purpose, a set of values, a set of attributes that make up what a brand is. For some, it's a stretch to use the analogy of brands can be more human, but they can be more definitely the more human brands are the brands that we connect with, because a brand is more than the Dunkin donuts logo on a cup. It's the experience that you get when you're in the environment.
Jim Pietruszynski [00:07:34]:
It's the experience that you get when you're sharing it with other people. It's the experience you get when you're talking to the coffee clerk behind the counter, the barista. I don't know if that's what Dunkin donuts calls them, but that whole experience and the colors they use, the phrases they use, the energy that's in that space, it's all part of the brand story. And one thing cannot coexist without the other, right? It has to holistically make sense and be cohesive. The second part of your story, I think, kind of ladders to what a brand means is we see a lot of what I call stunt marketing, where you can't just do one off logos or you can't just do something that just looks cool or looks beautiful. A lot of times that's fleeting. And a lot of times you confuse your message when you try to just gain attention for two months or three months with a campaign or a stunt that is just solely to gain awareness for a short period of time. I like to say, and the team here, as we talk branding is a marathon.
Jim Pietruszynski [00:08:54]:
It's not a sprint, and it's a team sport, not an individual sport. So when I say a team sport, not only what we're doing here in terms of developing the brand and the brand strategy, the brand story, but also what that looks is visualized in consumer packaged goods. But how does that come to life in marketing campaigns and advertising campaigns, social campaigns is how we think about it. So we did start as strictly as a consumer packaged goods company. So my heart is a little bit into the four dimensionality of what that brand feels like when it's in your hand or you're wearing it. The longevity that that has to have in the marketplace in order to be successful takes time. Lightning does strike in a bottle every once in a while, but I think it's becoming rarer and rarer just because of the opportunities that people have to get things to market on their own.
Travis Albritton [00:09:55]:
And you talked about how your philosophy is that branding is holistic. It's not just like here's a list of colors and the logos that we're going to use. It's much bigger than that. What are those core elements that you look for, both with brands that you work with, but then just others in the marketplace that you think every good brand needs to have figured out in order to have a holistic understanding of who they are, what they stand for, and how they're positioning themselves in the marketplace.
Jim Pietruszynski [00:10:25]:
There's an interesting tool that we like to think about in a different dimension of just an axis. But what's on that z and the e axis, how do those come together in terms of how we think about the brand? I think you really have to know what your expectations are going into, what you're doing. So what are our expectations as the owner of the brand? What is the expectation of the market or the human beings that are going to be consuming, buying, using our brands? And are those aligned and where it aligned, is there work that we need to do to create alignment or can we just start to build that alignment? And on the other side of the axis is like perception. So we have to be careful not to stay in our own bubble and just think about this is our perception of who we are and what we're doing, but what is being perceived on the other side, how are we being perceived? And that message goes along with everything that we do internally here in our office. Also in terms of how we communicate, collaborate, and any initiative. It's like stepping back and really thinking about what's the expectation and then what's the perspective. And I don't know that that's often used in business. I think there's a lot of metrics on are we positioning ourselves as premium versus value, or are we positioning ourselves.
Jim Pietruszynski [00:11:54]:
And I think there's a lot more that has to go into that thinking, because whether it's value or premium, it almost doesn't matter in terms of what and how it connects to the human relationship with the brand.
Travis Albritton [00:12:07]:
How do you condense the outside perception of a brand into something that's actionable as far as, like, being able to chart a path forward once you have that feedback? Because that, for me personally, has always been the wrestling match is like, I can get feedback, but then I'm filtering it through kind of like my own perception of how am I responding to this person or this group of people. But then it's also okay if the feedback I'm getting, the perception I'm getting, is not what I hoped it would be. How do you then turn that into something that you can take action on to shift that perspective?
Jim Pietruszynski [00:12:43]:
A lot of it. We do a lot of insight work with the different companies we work with at different scale and at different levels. Currently, this has been in the works for 15 plus years. We talk about brand and having an emotional reason to believe. I think a lot of times we're subjectively choosing what we think that emotion is and not really understanding that that's really the emotion that's being experienced on the other side of the relationship or the. So we've been working with sprout insight and a professor from the University of Illinois to make emotional reason to believe and a way to understand it and quantify it so that we can utilize that data in a meaningful way. That's just not subjective. I mean, focus groups are great for starting to understand, but they're a small representation of really what's being perceived out in the world and what's being perceived across the country in different locations.
Jim Pietruszynski [00:13:49]:
Because, as you know, you live in Florida, I live in Illinois. Very different experiences of culture, even though we live in the same country, right. There are a lot of similarities, but there are differences, too. So understanding that core emotion, I think that there's an argument of whether it's 70% to 95% of our decisions are made by our subconscious and made with emotion. And everyone says, don't make decisions with your emotion. But it's next to impossible because we're wired to be human beings again. We're still test piloting how to get there. And that question that you have of like how do you change that perception? Emotion is part of it.
Jim Pietruszynski [00:14:35]:
I think the other part of it is just listening. I mean, I think that you really just have to listen, whether that's like listening socially, listening to people talk, doing interviewed, stakeholder interviews, but really listening to what the needs are versus what we actually want to get out of something in the marketplace. Of course, we all want to do well in the marketplace. We all want to have the awareness that some major brands like Nike and Apple and all the Coca Cola have. But it takes a lot of listening to really understand where those are at before you can really become a leader in those categories.
Travis Albritton [00:15:17]:
Yeah, well, once you figure that out, I think the sky's the limit because I even think about myself and my own journey in marketing. How early on you're just consuming lots of case studies and educational materials, how to market, how to become sticky, how to get yourself out there. And then you start to see the emotional undercurrents of the marketing campaigns that you're interacting with on a daily basis. And I think for me at least, my purchasing is at least 90% emotional. But the problem is, now I know it is. And so I'm having to reconcile in my head, like, this is totally an emotional purchase that I'm trying to justify logically. Like, no, I really do need this from this very particular brand. And it's not at all because of their images on instagram.
Travis Albritton [00:16:00]:
And now it's positioned as this kind of product or this kind of identity that I want to be associated with. And so now I'm going to spend three times as much on a t shirt here versus at Target because I want to emotionally attach to the message of that brand. It drives me nuts internally.
Jim Pietruszynski [00:16:17]:
But a great example of that is like, and they're usually impulse buys at the sea store or when you're checking out. But we did a lot of work with Hershey's to get appetite appeal on their individual packs that are sold at retail. And when people, there's the brand name, right, there's a logo, you know what the experience of a Reese's peanut butter cup is. But to see it photographed on package emotionally is driving that impulse to want to pick it up and buy it even more. Right. It's like a great looking something that looks like it's going to taste great is tapping into that emotional sense of, like, I think I deserve a snack on my way home in the car, and I better eat this before I get home, before I see the kids.
Travis Albritton [00:17:02]:
Yeah, well, and the subconscious part of that is so powerful because they've done studies on coffee drinkers that your brain will actually start to react as if it's consuming caffeine. Just by thinking about coffee, your brain has actually trained itself to certain behaviors and certain triggers. And so, as marketers on the honest marketing podcast, with great power comes great responsibility. So use this to make the world better and actually improve the lives of the people that are interacting with your brand and not getting them hooked on, like, hydrocodine or something like that.
Jim Pietruszynski [00:17:39]:
I think that to that point, though, I mean, if you take it a level deeper, and I know this sounds a little bit like psychology, but the more that we are loyal to being honest and really being genuine, as I mentioned before, and trustworthy, I think that starts to drive culture to do the same. I mean, we're living in a time where it feels like there's a lot of we don't know who to listen to, we don't know what's right, we don't know what's wrong. And I've had this conversation with my wife many times. I think it's our responsibility as marketers and branding people to start setting that example. What are the things that are important to people? What are the things that are going to create loyalty? What are the things that are going to create collaboration and community? I think we can do it in micro doses. I don't think there's one big solve that fixes everything. I think first is understanding and listening, and then the next is starting to act on those things that are important. And I've seen brands participate here and there and try to activate in different ways.
Jim Pietruszynski [00:18:48]:
We helped develop the Vizzy brand for Molson cores, and they recognized the opportunity to really support the LGBTQ community in the Chicagoland area and even globally. But even the sponsorship and some of the work that they did and some of the work that was going into the marketing, just showing that support that everyone's included kind of notion is really great to see that there is some consciousness going there. And it wasn't meant to try to pull in another target or try to pull it in an influencer market, but meant to really let people know that they're included. And this product is for anyone and everyone.
Travis Albritton [00:19:39]:
So I want to shift to a little bit more. I guess. Practical strategy. When you're thinking about intentionally crafting a brand story, how do you create what I'll call positive emotional vibes between consumers and companies? Right. That positive affinity, brand affinity. When you think about Apple, you think about it in a positive light. Instead of the image of United Airlines dragging somebody off an airplane as like a negative brand affinity, what are the things that you look to? Is it color science, typography, iconography? What are the different elements that you think through and consider when you're trying to intentionally craft a brand to have a certain kind of emotional impact?
Jim Pietruszynski [00:20:23]:
Yeah, you answered some of the question, which is definitely color obviously plays a role. Typography also plays a role in how things feel or look. The interaction between, if it includes photography, like what's that style of photography? If we're talking about if there needs to be an influencer or there needs to be someone else associated with the brand, how does that personality connect to the personality that we're trying to perceive in the brand, but a big one, which I think, again, I'm not trying to sell our company, but I say you are responsible for, and this sounds a little bit self help, but everyone is responsible for the energy that they bring to the room. And if you bring positivity, yields positivity. And if going into a marketing organization and some of our clients where they're pushing numbers all day to tell us that the best meetings they have are when they get to sit down and talk about creative, if we bring that positive attitude, a positive message, and our positive energy to the experience, I think that transcends through the process, transcends through the work, and then transcends through the campaigns and just the brand in general. I mean, it's something really easy, but I think it's something that. What do they say? I won't use a curse word, but your culture and your team is only as good as the biggest jerk in the room, right? So you have to apply that too, when you're thinking about the brand teams that you're working with and the brands that you're developing and working on, and being able to be honest enough to call that out when you see things that are maybe going in the wrong direction. And empathy is important, too.
Jim Pietruszynski [00:22:12]:
I think empathy, not just for, not empathy of who we're targeting and who we want to talk to and understand what it's like to live in their shoes. I had the privilege of joining an insights team that was studying to develop a new alcoholic product for Americans that are mexican or Latin american, Hispanic. There are a number of different words used to describe the market. But going into homes of people that in Texas, in Chicago, in Los Angeles and not being asked, but them feeding us dinner and family comes, we're there to talk to 25 to 30 year old males and they're bringing in grandma and the kids are running around. And it became a very friendly, very inclusive, very open environment and actually changed the projection of where we thought the innovation should go based on the experiences that we had and not that there wasn't people on the team that come from those cultures, but to actually feel it and experience it changes how you build that positive notion or that positive branding interaction. And we don't see a lot of that happening much after Covid. I don't know if it's the expense of what it costs to do that type of research, but something I would love to see come back to the process, for sure.
Travis Albritton [00:23:59]:
And when I think about the tactical elements of branding, brand guides, brand playbooks being very common kind of decks of here's how you use our brand and here's how you use different elements and make sure it looks like this and not like this and don't do this. I'm curious how much of that is helpful in the sense of unifying, for instance, the blue that you're using in your typography and just creating a consistency and how much of that can also then become a hindrance from applying the messaging or the story, depending on the platform or medium. You're like, I've seen brands that they have a very particular visual style on Instagram and then they're trying to bring that to LinkedIn without recognizing the context of the content they're using. And maybe we actually do need a different photography style here in order for it to resonate with the people on this platform. But because it doesn't fit into the brand playbook, they're just kind of like deferring back to that as like the holy Bible of their company's marketing message. So what role does that consistency or that kind of unified approach to how you're presenting the brand in the market and in the places where you're interacting with people? What are the strengths and the weaknesses of that? Just so that as companies develop their own kind of brand playbooks or media guides, they know which rules to break and when in order to actually get the result that they want.
Jim Pietruszynski [00:25:31]:
That's a fair question too, with guidelines and where we go with standards, but consistency is great if you could maintain consistency, but you also, with that, have to have flexibility and to understand that sometimes the brand has to evolve depending on where culture is going. So paying attention to where culture is going and not just changing a photography style to meet and asking yourself, do we even belong on LinkedIn? Do we belong where do we have the right to actually live? I think that's a lot of times. I think some brands try to be all to everyone, and I think if that comes off as not genuine right, you have to mean something to someone. That line is, as a parent, you're not going to make your kids happy. 100% of the time, there's going to be some people that just aren't going to get it, and that's okay. I think the understanding is, in marketing, we just tend to want to make sure that everyone likes us and everyone wants to buy us, but it's just not the case and it's just not practical. So when we're developing brand guidelines, we like to say that they're the starting point. I think as we've done some roundtable workshops with a lot of the other agencies that touch the brand, and so we'll bring together the PR team, we'll breed together the media team, we'll breathe together, anyone that might have, the social team, anyone that might have.
Jim Pietruszynski [00:27:12]:
And we call them tabletops. And when you put everything up on the wall and look at it all together, there's a lot of inspiration that you get from seeing what some of the other teams are doing. And then there's other teams that are kind of checking themselves with like, hey, wait, I see where things are maybe kind of moving in a different direction and not following the guidelines or following the voice or following the vision that we need to make sure that there's consistency so people know who we are. I mean, they know that we don't have two personalities or three personalities out in the world. They understand it and they can play back to us consistently what they're getting out of what it's like to have our brand in their hand.
Travis Albritton [00:28:02]:
Yeah. And I think ultimately, where in my mind, the rubber really meets the road is it's like Mike Tyson. Everyone has a plan until you get punched in the mouth. I feel like every brand has a great strategy until you put it out there and you start engaging with people and now it becomes a dialogue instead of a monologue. Right. And so now there's like a mutual interaction and especially with social media and just the rapid rise of the influence of user generated content. Like, I think about that iconic ocean spray TikTok, it's just this dude on a long board, drinking a giant jug of cranberry juice that did more for their brand and their market share than any campaign that they put together. So there's also a level of, like, certain distribution channels you have a hand in controlling because you're the one creating the content.
Travis Albritton [00:28:54]:
But then ultimately, if you're intersecting with culture in the way that I think a lot of brands hope that they can, you have to then be willing to give up a certain amount of creative control for people, contributing to the messaging that you're creating and the community that you're building and the perception that you're building. So how do you coach brands on that? Because I imagine with especially like, established brands that have a history and a longevity and a certain momentum, it can be difficult to kind of let go of that homage to the past and innovate within the constraints of what they're comfortable with. And I imagine that's a lot of give and take. But how do you manage that tension of innovating, pushing forward, but then still staying attached to the core identity of what the brand has been?
Jim Pietruszynski [00:29:40]:
I think it's just being careful to not be too reactive to what's going on because as you said, things can happen quickly and then, I mean, Stanley, the big cups are hot, right? My, my daughter has one, it doesn't fit in the cabinet and you hear all these parents complaining about these big cups, right? And how did that become popular? It's all because of influencers, right? That brand didn't start out as a thermal cup brand, but it is durable. Right? I think that some of that is pigeon backing off a lot of what Yeti had done years prior, but something maybe a little bit more attainable still, but yet still. So, like, I think it's a moment that we have to pay attention to and understand why if we are going to react or we are going to change or are we going to listen to what's happening from the consumer's voice, really making sure that we understand why the changes or why the questions or why things are moving in the direction that they are. Sometimes we can explain them and I think sometimes it takes some time to figure it out. And that's what I mean by a marathon. You're not always going to get it right. Sometimes constant iterative prototyping to understand what's going on is more beneficial than just a whole changeover in what we're doing. So a little bit at a time, I think helps in terms of where we're going.
Jim Pietruszynski [00:31:18]:
There's a statistic of that only one in 600 new product launches make it every year to year two. So I think a lot of that is sometimes we don't give them enough time either. So we don't give them enough time to embed themselves into culture.
Travis Albritton [00:31:37]:
So what does that look like as we kind of start putting a bow on this conversation around branding, especially with the crossover with culture? What's kind of like the holy grail of this conversation? What's the ultimate pursuit when it comes to branding, culture overlap, integration? You mentioned artifacts. I think about the artifacts of my millennial generation, like the Walkman, the Nintendo cassette tapes, like things that represent something from a period in time, in a culture. What does that look like? What does that take to really have that kind of cultural impact? And again, this goes beyond just like make a good cassette player that's mobile, right? That would be a Walkman. But how does that become a cultural icon?
Jim Pietruszynski [00:32:30]:
Well, I think that like the Walkman, if you just use that example and that has morphed know now just live streaming music. But I think that was based on a need, right? Like moving away from radio. How can we have on demand music and listen to what, how can we curate our own music in a way that works? That took a lot of listening, no pun intended, with music, but took a lot of listening and then iterative thinking to get to a point to where that was. I think that also had a really strong point of difference, of what was meaningful in the marketplace. Being able to hold on to that point of difference and last generations is really important for the greater. I think you have to be willing to be in it for the long term success, but then also being able to be open to evolve. And I think watching that evolution to me is a strong proof point in brands really believing in themselves and also believing in. Really believing in a strong purpose, I would say, is the way to move forward.
Jim Pietruszynski [00:33:52]:
I think if when you stray away from that purpose, it really does start to convolute where and what you stand for. And I think it's hard enough for people to understand the purpose you're trying to get out in the first. Yeah, your Walkman is a great example because I think it may be probably the first that was fully mobile way to listen to music or to listen to story anywhere and everywhere that you were at. As long as you had batteries.
Travis Albritton [00:34:30]:
Yeah, I mean, it definitely beat lugging a boombox. Know exactly which is what we had before that. Well, Jim, I really appreciate you sharing all your insights with us and really helping us dig into the psychology of branding, not necessarily just the implementation, because I think you really need to have a solid understanding of both to pull it off. Where can people go to learn more about soulsight and the work that you do there and then also to connect with you personally.
Jim Pietruszynski [00:34:56]:
The best way to find out more about Soulsight is soulsight.com. If you want to connect with me personally, there is actually a contact us button on the website. I do receive all of those emails. You can find me on LinkedIn, but I'm not on any other social, so that's for my own mental health.
Travis Albritton [00:35:15]:
Yeah, you got to have that focus.
Jim Pietruszynski [00:35:17]:
If any of you have teenagers, you know that it's just easier to stay off of social to be on it to see what's going on. I'll let our younger staff monitor brands in their social environment.
Travis Albritton [00:35:29]:
That's good delegation, Jim. That shows strong leadership skills, which I know that you've talked about.
Jim Pietruszynski [00:35:34]:
You're there accountable for goes. I go to unhealthy places personally with some of the stuff that's on social for sure. But yeah, that's where websites the best place to find it. We're going through a bit of a website redesign. Some of the work that's on there is a few years old, but look for some new work to be posted in the next, I would say two to three months.
Travis Albritton [00:36:00]:
Very cool. Well, Jim, thank you again for your time and everything. You really enjoyed it.
Jim Pietruszynski [00:36:04]:
Thanks, Travis.
Travis Albritton [00:36:05]:
So my number one takeaway from my conversation with Jim is to not overlook the importance of dialogue. That when he was talking about going into people's homes, having conversations, connecting with the people that ultimately they want to resonate with the brands and the products they're launching. That kind of dialogue is so important because we can certainly put together our best guess. This is how we think our brand is positioned, this is how we think we're perceived. And just kind of like take that and not consider actually implementing some real feedback from people. And so taking the time to do some real market research, talk to actual customers that you serve, actual clients that you serve, to hear from them what they think about you, how they perceive you, do they see you as more premium or more value? What kind of impact does your brand or company have in their life? Do they think about it in a positive way or in a negative way and really having that stage set so that way you can make strategic adjustments to the messaging you're putting out there, the materials and the marketing collateral you're creating to make sure it's all aligned in the direction of where you want your brand to go and ultimately what you want to shape yourself into. Make sure you check out Jim's company, Soulsites.com and connect with them on LinkedIn. Both those links are in the description below.
Travis Albritton [00:37:24]:
I hope you enjoyed another episode here on the Honest marketing podcast. And until next time, stay honest.